jdbergeni see things upside down
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Original: 12/28/2005 2:44 PM
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Wednesday, December 28, 2005

 
Currently Listening
Mockingbird
By Derek Webb
see related

War and Peace

Shaun Groves wrote an interesting post on his blog (read the post and discusion here: http://readshlog.blogspot.com/2005/12/brants-questions-on-my-non-violence.html)

That got me thinking about the subject of violence and pacifism. And I have really only come up with questions not answers or solutions.

The way I see it, Jesus introduced a 'new reality' (as Michael Card calls it). When he came to earth. His teachings were so different than what people had always thought. Instead of having one nation that he wanted to keep pure and show blessings to, he invited everyone to follow Christ, love him and love others. So with the way he works shifting, it seems the need for his followers to use violence no longer exists. And Jesus teaches that we should turn the other cheak and love our enemies.

The group of missionaries that were killed 50 years ago when they went to a tribe in Ecuador, actually had a gun with them. One man said that he would probably not use it because he had already settled were he would spend eternity and the tribesmen had not. That seems like the right christian attitude (it also seems like it would be really hard to practice if someone was attacking you).

Derek Webb wrote:

I have come to give you life
and to show you how to live it
i have come to make things right
to heal their ears and show you how to forgive them

because i would rather die than to take your life

how can i kill the ones i’m supposed to love
my enemies are men like me

i will protest the sword if it’s not wielded well

peace by way of war is like purity by way of fornication
it’s like telling someone murder is wrong
and then showing them by way of execution

when justice is bought and sold just like weapons of war
the ones who always pay are the poorest of the poor

I think he somes things up well in the chorus of another song:

my first allegiance is not to a flag, a country, or a man
my first allegiance is not to democracy or blood
it's to a king & a kingdom

My questions are: Is violance ever encouraged in the new testament? What scriptures do we justify capital punishment with? When should a christian use violance? What are the alternatives? Does this subject really concern me?

 Posted 12/28/2005 2:44 PM - 46 Views - 6 eProps - 10 comments

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I think the capital punishment advocates cite the the OT and not the NT. (Dt 19:21) It's a beautiful fine line, and I'm interested in seeing what others think. Although they may have given up on your site seeing as you never post anything new.
Posted 12/28/2005 5:18 PM by PrynsisSwtP - reply

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I would venture a guess that those who engage in a violent life tend to encounter violence more than those who don't. There are OT references for eye for an eye and such, but not much by way of NT. I guess it is kind of a lifestyle and principles you live by that determine your path. It is spiritual warfare and sometimes it becomes physical, but how do you know when to defend, offend or retreat? Is there ever a time to take the offensive? Sometimes taking a pacifist stand can be viewed as a sign of weakness.

It reminds me of a joke. A burglar broke into the house of a Quaker. The Quaker woke up and when he found the burglar, he pointed his gun and said, 'Sir, you are standing where I am about to shoot!'
Posted 12/28/2005 5:22 PM by Festsgrber - reply

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My favorite part of the discussion over at Shaun's blog was when he summarized exactly why he is a pacifist:
I'm a pacifist because being so is I think part of being perfect as my Father in Heaven is perfect. That's the only motivation Jesus offers in the Sermon on the Mount. Pacifism is not about war but about denying human nature's draw towards self and preservation and harm, it's denying oneself and not satisfying oneself with anger or hostility of any kind. It's becoming meek (Psalm 39-1-11) and committing my way to the lord so that I do not feel the need to be vengeful, worried or angry. It's not treating the symptom (war) without addressing the disease (self). Those folks protesting are fixing the symptom perhaps, though probably not, but could easily miss the cause. War does the same thing. It kills the tyrant but only prolongs the inevitable revival of evil. It is ineffective at what it claims to be effective at: creating peace. And, I'd say, pacifism does not remove the tyrant OR free his people by itself. So, let's say neither pacifism nor violence really fixes the problem of of the oppressor and the oppressed entirely or permanently or, maybe, at all. So to some degree, in some ways, they're the same. The difference is - and this is why I chose one over the other - that pacifism, while it's failing to save us all, puts the character of the Father on display for all to see. When we die. When we're raped. When our civilization crumbles at the hand of militant Muslims. Someone is watching. And they'll see Jesus. Do they see that in violence? Military action is never pitched as the work of God, the character of God. Is it? Is it putting on display the values of God? I don't believe it is, so I choose not to support it. NOT BECAUSE it doesn't work, for I've already said pacifism doesn't either. BUT because it is part of being perfect as my Father in Heaven in perfect and therefore points to peculiar perfection no matter the outcome.
Posted 12/29/2005 1:27 PM by musicwiz_composer - reply

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I almost hit a possum last night, but I didn't. Does that make me a pacifist? What if it had been a cat?
Posted 12/31/2005 2:30 PM by Festsgrber - reply

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Ok, Googled 'New testament capitol punishment' One of the results: http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/punish.html

Not sure I agree with everything on that site, but I am pretty sure the Old Testament encourages capitol punishment and I don't think the New Testamant countermands that edict.

BTW, missed you bowling tonight and hope Amy is ok.
Posted 1/7/2006 5:43 AM by Festsgrber - reply

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Yea, when that guy from the website you mentioned says "If you know your Bible, then you know this old planet will survive for AT LEAST another 1007 years!", it's pretty obvious everything he says is b.s. The best way to protect our environment is to support the death penalty? And he's smoking what?
Posted 1/7/2006 11:38 PM by musicwiz_composer - reply

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Ok, do we know the planet will not last at least another 1007 years? Plus, he could be suffering from secondhand smoke?!?!?
Posted 1/9/2006 8:05 AM by Festsgrber - reply

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So you think he has the biblical authority to make the statement that the earth will be around at least another 10007 years?
Posted 1/9/2006 1:11 PM by musicwiz_composer - reply

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Sorry, I meant 1007.
Posted 1/9/2006 1:11 PM by musicwiz_composer - reply

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I might be around for another 30 or 40 years, so since that is about 967 or 977 years short of 1007, what does it matter to me? Maybe he knows something I don't? Not sure if he has biblical authority? If he is 25 years old, he will be around for 50 years or so and the remaining 957 that may prove him wrong will matter to him after death in what way? But I would infer his reference to 1007 years would be if the rapture happened tomorrow and the 7 year tribulation started at that point. At the end of the 7 years the 1000 reign would begin. Maybe that is where he gets 1007 years, but what do I know?
Posted 1/9/2006 6:23 PM by Festsgrber - reply


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